first i wood liek to say that um i am sad that my frend stanly has been in jailed. staly was alweys there 4 me so liek i just want to let him have fun more pleas . shystan is a good guy and has always been there 4 me, like a wite horse that i grashusly donated to my frend danger. he looks liek zombie and perled me 1nce. and he um.... he look like zombie but i forgive him and i know i sumotimes annoy u bc u looked like zombey and um i thught u were zombie so i yelled DANGER ZOMBEY n s tuff. but i hope u forgeve stanly becauyse he is good frend and deserves to be freinded now. ecksampel: wen i found a wite horse and u thought that u guys did relly think that i like took it or something but i didnot take it bc i am good honest person but i am relly happy that stanly supported me with horse and like new i didnt steel it and stuff but reall i knew u guys were mad at me but also savanah is my bro on server and i dont want to go on server without stanly and stuff but i rlly care abt him n stuff so like i wone tbe able to see my bro on server but i want to it is not fair i did nto do anything like relly so yeahu now that the horse is with the man who lost his i am happy that he got a new horse and stuff  but systan is free he needs free n stuff yeah but i want him to not be in dessert any1more pleas free stanly i want him to free. horse i gave was wite and i miss him and her and you know i am sorry that "i have helped and have" but i like to also. it not fair for stanly to be punished by mean and yu know. i am sorry for greef he caus but i am also disapoynted with u for perling him he not deserve bad to perl and stuff liek u know i just want him to live with all of rest of u know. you guys like. yeah i dont like meen people and i dont wantot to have u be liek meen ppl for u to shystanly because he is good friend. also $FreeShystan

It doesn't matter but I just want to make it clear: I do not have any of Shystan's stuff. I didn't loot anything from him. All items I have from Shystan are gunpowder which were given as donation and trade for Iron. Well before this happened.

Also I do agree with Stan on one thing for certain: Perled or not I think it's his choice where his assets and property go. I don't think the perler should be free to loot everything. If Stan demands his items be burned in Lava so be it, provided people are willing to do it. Otherwise it should be left alone. Joey has items of Stan's, but by voluntary permission from Stan after his perling.

I'm not saying we should recount everything of Stan's and fix it, but in the future this should be policy.

Savanna, I simply asked if we can get his stuff. I have nothing of his besides what he gave to me. Just wanted to clear that up because I am now being accused of a thief

ProgamerHD me either and Joey oaky good to know.

I would have prefered to have left his stuff be temporarily, but that is done now.
I do not see how we can recap whatever was taken without starting another issue.  I could say i had 50 diamonds now give them back, I can't prove it.

I want to think on this personally, as I am the one who was pestard the most, again THIS IS NOT MY CALL.

OH VBELAC....

I was in favor of TRYING to give him another chance but I do not want to be bullied into releasing him because he was a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS, lets just be clear he admitted it, and I thank him for that.  This is for those who were not tormented to shit by him constantly, then him ignore you when you wanted him to fix his shit or give your horse back.  I like that he was playing and trading, I'm all for that, but I want him to leave me alone or I WILL SUPPLY the Diamond reignforced 5 layer thick OBSIDIAN for his chest which will be burried in the deepest freaking Lava pool on the map, and unrecoverable as I sip my hot coco in ease.

Seriously SHYSTAN, ProgamerHD told us you didn't like minecraft you like the social aspect of it, well if that aspect was trashing Orange City and annoying me I am not on board.

I repect you wrote your apology and I am like if he wants to play that bad then maybe, but as the course of this letter chain goes on I have some concerns around the attitude of you and others,  IF you were freed.  VBELAC you brought him to Orange City, which you don't live in and left him after you had to get cows to replace ALL of Stone Gates cows he managed to blow up first 10min on game that night,  I also remember you talking about him messing with chests, and telling him no.  Next day Death states his chests are broken into, did he do it?? no idea not my town.  So I get stuck baby sitting him at my town, I tried to send him back to Stone gate and they were like NOoooooo.


IF, and I MEAN IF, not when, then I personally have ground rules.
Orange City Access is limited, and can be revoked at anytime, common grounds areas like the shops, and food, NO TREE FARM EVER, that takes forever to fix, I'm not doing it again for the thrill of someone else.
Leave animals in Orange alone, meaning you got no reason to got near my land walkways to my land and the top mountain is off limits as is my land, and Dangerlowski and Artensas home unless THEY says you can go there.  You are not allowed to claim any land in the original Orange City only your place in the expansion area where your house is, no multiple buildings just to waste space we don't have.
I do not want to see you setting off any snitches on my land, that includes the land near Jonin's horse.   
Basically stop the nonsense.  I see your name on ANY of my personal property snitchesand your hypathetical parol would be revoked instantly, and perminantely, no additional conversations.

Lets talk about property looted as far as I am concerned its GONE.  I would like to know what happened to your horses???  Because I know Joey and Commander left them.

The thread continues on here withyour property. I do not want to go through that drama.  Now IF you were allowed to come back we have to listen to the DRAMA about i had this or that.  YOU HAVE HAD YOUR second chance with Shanghai and he told you if you got perled again taht was IT.  So you knew you were on thin ice, YOU KNEW.  That man ( Shanghai) wasted like HOURS of his time talking to you, trying to help you so you could continue to play on here.  I was goign to perl you and call it a day.  PERIOD, your perl would have been placed in a vaut for you to stay for all time, but Shanghai said I got this, he wanted to help you.   SO I have to think on this even though it is not my call. 

I was unaware that Orange City was privately owned land with a central authority. Also, he had nothing to do with the cows being blown up, that was entirely my fault. Furthermore, I'm not responsible for any of his other actions whatsoever.

The property issue is irrelevant at this point, I'll give him anything he needs when he is released. As far as what I think is right in the issue of his property, I think when someone is pearled some amount of the items taken from the pearled person should be given to people who had to spend time and resources cleaning up after them and who were the victims in the first place, to pay for damages. Some portion can go to the person who pearled said person, but I think this is very much a situational issue and should be discussed and agreed upon by the pearler and victims both.

"but I think this is very much a situational issue and should be discussed and agreed upon by the pearler and victims both."


I'm cool with this, I think everyone jumping at the property like rabid dogs has just created another layer to the issue. Which should have some sort of guideline for prevention in the future.

Hi everyone,

I'm glad to see a dialogue going. I think the most productive way forward is to talk about what would have to happen to effect Stan's release, and if those options are feasible and satisfying to all the stake-holders.

Before going further down that road, it might be useful to add my own experience of the situation for everyone's consideration. This is going to be a long message, broken down into sections, so please skip to any section that interests you, or down to the bottom for the TL;DR summary.


MY REASONS FOR GETTING INVOLVED:

I'm interested in AF as a gaming community, but also for the social experiment component. Can a self-governing community work, and work well? Can it solve its social conflicts with more efficiency, justice and dignity than other top-down/centralized models? I have no prior relationship with Stan, but I hope that as this community develops through trial and error over time, our errors arise from too much patience and tolerance, instead of too little.


MY EXPERIENCE OF THIS SITUATION:

I've had a couple of long conversations with Stan over the past couple of days--each one lasting about two hours. During these conversations we talked about all of these incidents and other, more general topics related to how different people get along in online communities.


FIRST IMPRISONMENT:

As some of you know, I briefly imprisoned Stan myself on the evening of Friday, Jan. 31, not only because of the many in-game disruptions up until that point (and one event that bled over into the real world), but also because I didn't see that Stan was being sufficiently considerate of efforts to discuss and resolve these issues.

After our first lengthy discussion, I set him free, returned his items, and provided him with additional items and assistance, as a gesture of my good faith. I didn't set any terms for his release beyond 1) not speaking to Zeppelin's brother in chat, and 2) a general understanding that his behavior up until that point had not been committed out of malice. To be clear, yes, we later talked about how some of his actions were intentional, and showed poor judgment (as Stan mentions in the original post), but not meant to be mean-spirited. I believe that is true.

We did not discuss how others might respond to his actions going forward, nor did I give any indication that I spoke for anyone but myself (which I don't).


SECOND IMPRISONMENT:

I was disappointed to see him continue to needle Savannah afterward, and I don't dispute the legitimacy of the second imprisonment by Commander. Nor do I dispute the propriety of a longer period of imprisonment.

However, I was sad to see Stan's property looted in the immediate, highly-charged aftermath of the event. I don't necessarily dispute the idea that a material penalty was improper, but that was not the context in which the seizure occurred. It appears that it was based on the position that he was now gone forever, and so it only remained to carve up the wealth left behind. Even when there is complete certainty that someone is imprisoned without parole, and there's no question that the assets must be disposed of somehow, I think this process should not occur during the heat of the moment.

I feel the same way about the subsequent repeat killings, which might be a useful tool to chase someone off the server entirely under certain circumstances, but didn't seem to me like it came from a level-headed place as it actually went down. It was super late, people were fed up. I understand.


STAN'S APPEAL:

The next day, Stan messaged me for assistance and we had our second long conversation. I said that I thought the forum was the best place to make an appeal, and that's how this thread came about. We talked for a couple hours about a lot of things, including the need to try to look at situations from others' point of view, and building trust not through words, but through actions over time.

He fully engaged the conversation and wrote his apology/appeal in his own words. I reminded him to include the event with Danger's horse, and suggested that he invite people to suggest terms of release. That's the extent of my involvement with the appeal. After that, I advised him to take a step back from the situation and cool off for a day or more.

I would like to reiterate what Savannah said. It's easy to become cynical about the sincerity of strangers on the internet, but I also want to publicly commend Stan for posting this apology. Yes, he wants out. That can cloud one's ability to interpret intent. But even taking that into consideration, he could have approached this topic in any manner of unproductive ways, and chose this route instead.

TO COMMANDER:

As Stan's jailor, you obviously play a pivotal role in determining his future status. First, let me say again that I agree with you putting him in the cooler. Regardless of his intent to cause physical harm, the TNT event showed poor judgment and an unacceptably negligent level of consideration for others. My question is: Should the imprisonment be forever?

It seems to me that what you're fundamentally after is an environment free not only of serious griefing (property destruction, theft, non-consensual PvP, etc.), but also free of chronic drama, disruptions and nuisances--especially when it's intentional (and everyone agrees that at least some of it was intentional). I couldn't agree more with that vision of the community.

I hope you would also agree that it would be at least a little odd to impose the same punishment on a chronic low-level nuisance as would be imposed on a malicious griefer who, say, turned someone's base into a crater, jacked all their loot, and bed-camped them for hours.

In view of that, I hope you (and everyone) will explore other ideas on the spectrum of crime, punishment and restitution laid out below.


OTHER OPTIONS POSSIBLY AVAILABLE THROUGH THE PEARL SYSTEM:

The pearl system includes interesting commands that aren't displayed on the site. First, the distance a prisoner can travel from his jailor can be set by the jailor (/ppsetdist <playername> <distance>). This means a prisoner can be given complete mobility in the Overworld while still being subject to the jailor's pearl powers.

The prisoner's ability to speak, place blocks, and damage other players and mobs can also be set by the jailor. If these commands are available to us, I hope they move us one step closer to a a viable model for parole.

Does the jailor have to be online for the prisoner to move about the world? I don't know, but probably. If so, one or more parole officers (PO) could be appointed to hold the pearl so the parolee can play. If the POs violate the jailor's terms while holding the pearl, then they too would be penalized as well. I know Stan plays with Joe and Pro, and communicates with them outside MC, so they might be good candidates if they're interested. I'd be willing to consider the role myself. Yes, there will be some inconvenience to the prisoner, but that's unavoidable.

(NOTE TO INTANGIR: If these commands are not available to us, I would love to see them restored.  They would add powerful tools and fascinating nuance to the community's self-policing powers).

Other options exist, in addition to, or instead of the pearl-parole model described here.


RECIDIVISM INSURANCE:

How will victims of repeat offenses be compensated, and who will compensate them? Players who vouch for the prisoner should contribute to a fund that will go to the victims of any further harm caused by the prisoner they've insured, for the duration of the parole period (or longer). I will contribute to such a fund if there is interest in pursuing this option. If the jailor is not also a victim, I don't believe the jailor should receive compensation (except for the pearl spent, as noted below), for fear of creating a hostage/ransom incentive via the pearl system. It creates a systemic conflict of interest.


LIMITATIONS ON MOVEMENT, CHAT AND ACTION:

The prisoner agrees to limits on all of these things. In Stan's case, I would propose a temporary ban from OC, to insure minimal drama in that area--even if unintended--and that he establish a new home no closer than 1 kilometer from OC. He is otherwise free to move around the world, but not to enter OC for X number of days (30? 60? 90?).


COMPENSATION:

In this case, Stan's assets have already been seized, so I think in this case, a material  penalty has already been applied. I think that penalty is too steep, and I would leave it to the consciences of those who seized those assets to decide, but if calling it even is what it takes to come to an arrangement, I wouldn't press the issue. Also, the jailor should receive a pearl to replace the one spent. The pearl can come from the prisoner, or someone who vouches for the prisoner (see below). I'll give Commander a pearl if need be.


A FINITE SENTENCE WITH A KNOWN END:

Another simple option is a publicly known end to the imprisonment. A period of imprisonment followed by a period of probation seems like a more proportionate response to the offenses involved. At the low end, I would suggest time already served. At the high end, I wouldn't recommend anything more than one week from the initial imprisonment date.


CLEARLY ESTABLISHED CONSEQUENCES FOR RECIDIVISM:

It should be made crystal clear to all stake-holders (and probably to the general public), prior to the prisoner's release what the consequences will be for further offenses. In this case, for example: further trespassing or nuisances combined with a demonstrated unwillingness to resolve them will be followed by longer imprisonment (1-3 months). More severe actions, such as block-placement griefing, theft or property destruction, or any non-consensual combat, will result in final, permanent imprisonment.


EXPECTATIONS OF THE COMMUNITY:

Out of respect for any parolees, ourselves, and the mission of this community, no one will provoke, goad, taunt or otherwise interfere with a parolee during a probationary period (and hopefully not afterward either). Further conflicts will be thoroughly screenshotted and offered on request as evidence of wrong-doing. That said, the parolee understands that no actions from other players excuse violations of parole terms.

TL;DR

- My interest is in helping this community be as just and efficient as possible.
- I think it was appropriate to pearl Stan, but want to explore other options for duration.
- I believe Stan will make a sincere effort to be a peaceful member of the community.
- If I'm mistaken, I will help out any further victims.
- This case presents an opportunity to develop a parole system based on many good options.
- These are not just my thoughts on Stan's case, but on crime & punishment in general.

@Shanghai I'd be willing to participate in some sort of parole officer sort of endeavor. I am unfamiliar with how pearls work though.

And yes, I did read your entire post.

   yeah I read it all too, now my eyes are bleeding.

              Shanghai, I like your ideas you have here. For this to work, there's going to have to be some modifications to the pearl mod, (I will use shystan as a prop). One change that you don't have listed is the double-pearling of one prisoner. Example: I have shystan's pearl. I summon him to the overworld. Someone else pearls shystan as I have his pearl also. That person who has now "double" pearled shystan has control over him and my pearl is worthless now. He can be freed by that player without my consent atall. This definitely needs to change in order for your parole idea to work. I would hope intangir would be gracious enough to work on that for us. Along with the radius size commands to limit how big of an area the prisoner has available to him.

      Note: This has actually happened in the past

Shanghai,  Again I praise your time and efforts in this matter.

Auh...This is why I love you Vbelac - Seriously the issue was with Shystan not Orange or any minor ordinances/rules/ common courtesy in the city.

I do not have any desire in the parole thing, then someone has to baby sitting an annoying person, making them yet more burdon on someone else.  Plus the perl can be stolen, that is true.  We are adults or close to it, be civil or go to another server has really always been how this server has worked.  It is not much to ask I don't think.  This is why this server does not BAN people for speaking their mind or griefing.  Intangir is a very gracious host.
Why should Intangir have to put in his valuable time to work around someone not acting right.  PASS

IF he is freed this is chance #3.  He did not care much about Chance #2, so I am not sure how serious he will take it.  If I cry long enough to mom and dad and they give in what did I learn?

To get my way I just need to cry long enough and get my way.  I DO NOT want this to be his lesson.
If set free with STIPULATIONS, He would be a first on this server, usually if you have made someone mad enough to have to perl you then thats it, but I see he wants to play, the question in my mind is what game will he be playing?
I now trust him as far as I can throw Commanders Iron golem, he would have to earn trust with me.
Personally I smell some chicken poo might be on my featherfall IV boots.  

The Looting:  Though it is not my thing!  it usually would not be an issue because PERLED is PERLED.
I do think it is in terrible taste, the body isn't even cold yet so to speak, but I have seen families drive cross country when someone dies so they can be teh first one in thier home and take their stuff.  They never drove there when the person was alive, but they drop everything for the loot when they die, so I guess it is some kind of human nature?

Orange City - he has a shop there, for him to grow trade is a good idea.
Question can he come in stock his shop get his goods and leave without issue???


Just my thoughts...  Stan wants ta play...

I don't think I've been crying to mommy and daddy over this. Also I never knew pearled ment you were dead. I thought it was a "Jail" and I'm pretty sure the police don't come to your house after you've been put in prison and take all of your stuff.

Pearling only generally means dead because a good 90% of the time the griefers come online, grief, get pearled, and never come back. Most of them never intend to actually play and they rarely want to make amends. When someone actually wants out and is willing to make amends, they usually get out. The only thing is, that already happened once with you.

Hey everyone,

Here's another long post. No sections this time, but there's a TL;DR at the bottom.

ProGamer, thanks for taking the time to read and for volunteering your services in a PO capacity, if that option is pursued.

Stan, it seems like the conversation is moving a constructive direction. Several options are now on the table. The details could get quite complicated, and I suspect folks need time to process them and perhaps come back with their own terms and conditions.

Commander, I'm glad you think the ideas I put forth are interesting. Thanks for considering them.

You raise a good point about the "double-pearl" issue. This could be easily disabled through a configuration option already built in to the mod, but doing so would create another set of opportunities for exploitation. With double-pearl on, an accomplice could acquire jailor powers and liberate a paroled prisoner. With double-pearl off, a pair of griefers (or more) could team up and "pre-pearl" each other so the community at large can't easily imprison them.

I'd like to explore both options a bit and see what you (and everyone) think (after your eyes stop bleeding from my last post ):

First, let's suppose double-pearling is disabled. Now griefer teams can "pre-pearl" each other. This would require a level of planning, time and effort that most people seem to shrug off as highly unlikely in all other contexts, because griefers are almost always defined by their need for instant gratification. If they can't hassle you at no cost to themselves, 999 out of 1000 won't bother.

On the other hand, let's say that double-pearl functionality remains enabled. Remember that the jailor can disable a parolee's chat. This means he would have to recruit a Minecraft-playing friend from outside the game to join the server, start from scratch, acquire a pearl, meet at some secret location, and double-pearl him. This seems like a huge headache with a huge risk of worse punishment attached for both players, compared to simply completing a probationary period.

Yes, the prisoner might have a second account to double-pearl himself, but griefers with multiple accounts are a headache no matter what we do.

Now let's suppose an accomplice successfully double-pearls a parolee. What has the parolee gained? At most, one last, short hurrah. Admittedly, it doesn't take too long for a griefer to do a lot of damage. Even so, if we're talking about paroling people anyway, they could just as easily take revenge as soon as they're legitimately freed, or later on after they've acquired more wealth. It's true that once you pearl someone, they might want revenge, and the only guarantee against that is to leave them in prison forever.

If the parolee flaunts their unearned freedom, or if the original jailor logs back in and discovers his original pearl gone or non-functional (I'm not sure what it would look like), then the parolee has violated terms of parole and is now subject to permanent imprisonment. This community is good at hunting down griefers, and even the ones who slip away (like that one alt account belonging to MiaWinG) know better than to log back in.

If such an event occurred, yes, it would definitely be more work. Whether or not the risk of having to re-imprison the rare escapee (and accomplice) is worthwhile depends on the weight one gives to using this server as a platform for exploring the principled application of anarchism vs. a quiet place where like-minded folks can play Minecraft in peace. I think it can be both, but certainly acknowledge that this issue shows how finding that balance can be difficult. I don't begrudge the folks who just want to nuke trouble-makers and be done with it. They have the whole rest of the real world in which to run amok, so why can't we just have one tiny little bullshit-free zone? I get it.

It's also a remote possibility that an embittered player might try to "frame" a parolee by re-pearling him against his will and then claiming the parolee did it on purpose. I don't see that as likely, but if the standard up until now was to imprison people forever anyway, with no chance to rejoin the community, then this situation is still more just, flaws included. It requires the hypothetical embittered player to spend the time and pearl on the cause, and to jeopardize good standing with the community by lying about the situation.

I also agree that it would be cool if the pearl system could be massaged to be more empowering. For example, if /pplocate were a global command, instead of being available only the prisoner. It does not essentially change the fact that when you pearl someone, anyone can find out where you're keeping it. The only step removed is requiring the prisoner to be the one to provide that information. If /ppl were global, then pre-pearling would present griefers with a major liability as well, as their primary defense is simply not being found. Global /ppl would take that away from them.

Savannah, you also make several good points. I don't blame you for not wanting to invest anything in any parole efforts that may result from this conversation. You've had to spend more than enough energy on this situation already.

Also, thanks for catching me up on the "common law" history of the server. I realize that I'm asking people to spend a lot of energy on something that could take them outside their comfort zone. I can see why people might just want to say "Hmm, neat ideas, but I'm not feeling it for these reasons." The current method has served you all well in the past, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That's why I think its great that people are engaging this conversation in good faith. My personal preference is to see the community use this situation as a test case for a more nuanced system of crime & punishment, but there are other valid reasons why it may not a good time or case, and I respect that.

TL;DR

- Thanks to Pro for offering PO services if that option is pursued
- Options are now on the table. People need time to think about them.
- Commander rightly points out that there are complications whether double-pearling is on or off
- Some of these complications are analyzed and might not be so bad. Maybe?
- Are there feasible changes Int could make to pearling to help the community self-police?
- It's great that everyone is engaging in good faith; this will help legitimize the final outcome.

              You're a cool guy, shang. I'm glad you chose this server to play on . Lots of good ideas and suggestions. I'm all for most of them, although they might be tough to do.

              The coding hassle and the major thought that needs to be put in to figure out how to minimize the exploitations that the prison pearls could bring about.

         (If these modifications happen I'll most likely do the probation method with shystan and see if it works out, then full release if I see he's legitimately learned his lesson).

             but there might not be a way to eliminate the double-pearl thing so it might or might not happen, for now patience is key.

If he is unperled then he is unperled under terms, the Terms would be the Parole, not the guardianship of the perl not interested in that at all.

I don't think that is helpful for stan or us, to have him leashed around on a perl seems to governmentalized, so Pass.  I can not speak for Intangir but seems bad idea adding or changing the server to suit one guy, that makes no sense.  Sorry long day so just saying it how it is.  I do find the perl-parole idea like leading a dog on leash, might as well just summor him for an hour a day to go mine gun powder for his shop then back to desert prision?  See not liking that thought at all, this is just how I invision it.

More Server History;
We have a resourceful and effective way of dealing with multile alts it works, that's how Commander got Shystans other account so quickly.  Team Vbelac and Commander, Simon and Intangir are some of the best griefer hunters on the map.  They had lots of practice on old map and V2 especially.